Let’s shut the IITs down

Note: This is a rather long and angry post about something stupid I recently watched on TV. Why does that deserve a post? I don’t know, but I think it is important to provide some amount of truth to counter grossly misrepresented facts.


I’ve been extremely angered and disappointed with the undeserved venom and hatred being directed towards IITs all over the popular media. It looks like the rest of India thinks IITs are some kind of over-hyped subsidized assembly lines to take in nerdy kids without a life and give them all jobs worth millions, which they obviously don’t deserve because they don’t play sports, don’t do research and have no right to waste the nation’s money like this. They’re just robots who’ve spent all of their life after Grade 6 running a rat race that the rest of the kids were smart enough to avoid and have a life instead. Here’s some insanity from Quora, that just shows how much people like maligning something they’ve decided to hate:

Forcing IITians to stay in the country, IITians not working hard enough – there’s more, which you can easily search for.

Hatred just spews out if you read some of the answers and opinions people have about IITs in general. But, a small bunch of buffoons on the web cannot anger me, because they’re just faceless wimps with an Internet connection. My cause of anger is this supposedly “critical” debate about fat paychecks in campus placements (IIT Bombay). When a national news channel decides to call in a “holier-than-thou” uninformed self-proclaimed expert to judge whether the IITs have been worth all the trouble to the nation, it makes me cringe[1].

If you have time, I would like you to watch the video of this debate here, which is basically the reason I’m writing this post: IIT Placements: Fat Paychecks, but at what cost? [2]

To be very honest, this is mindless obsessing over a single good paycheck. It is nothing new, nor will it be the last such. Who asked you to define success in terms of paychecks and then go crazy about it? Now, I’m all for the freedom to have your own opinion and express it publicly, but what I will just NOT tolerate is incessant misrepresentation of facts, and the attitude where making populist statements gets you the applause. As much as the Internet is about free propagation of knowledge, it is filled up with idiots, and no, just because you take in tweets from opinionated uninformed people doesn’t mean your show is advanced and novel. An unbiased and smart moderator can work wonders, but that is something most of these news hosts are not.

Host: IITs have become the path to success and it is a trend to get your kid into IIT and ensure that fat paycheck. No, you fools. Getting into any college does not ensure any kind of success. The only thing that the law guy rightly says is that it is all about ability, which is true. There are successful non-IITians, and there are wasted IITians as well. But then he goes on to say that you’re giving up your life to get into IIT. Yes it is hard work, takes an effort, but who is giving up on what? Does he think IITians don’t play sports? Has he ever stepped inside an IIT and seen the scale of facilities that students have access to? You’re talking about art? I’ve seen some amazing amateur musicians, photographers and artists who are students of IIT. That apart, neither the IITs nor the students themselves claim that getting into IIT ensures success. It is just one of those delusions of many naive Indian parents, and also our show host here. Go educate them, don’t hold vendetta against the IITs.

Host: You don’t play sports, you give up so much in life. That’s ridiculous! No, it isn’t. Let me tell you what is ridiculous – your dumb parents who put their kids to the grind. I’ll tell you what’s ridiculous – this law school guy sitting beside you and passing judgment. Yes, India has no Olympic credentials because of a lot of reasons, and your parents are to blame for that, maybe. But please keep the IITs out of this debate. Just to point out how ridiculous this sounds, I might blame the poor state of Indian courts on people like our law guy on the show, who waste their time appearing on dumb shows on TV.

Law guy: Success was never about attending these “label” institutes, success is about what performance. Yawn! Dude you just repeated your point. We’re not even disagreeing with you. The only person who ever said that IITs ensure success was the host of this show. Go eat her head.

Law guy: I’d like to put this question across there: How much research is happening in IIT, and how much in terms of research is IIT as an educational institute of engineering contributing to the economy of scientific development in this country. That’s the question you need to answer. Is there any quality research going on in IIT to make a quantitative contribution to the Indian economy or fat paychecks or success. Wow, big words this guy uses. Until this point in the debate, I would have given the benfit of doubt to this law guy. But as soon as he said the above words, I just knew he was no different from those angry young men who blame capitalism for all their family problems[3]. I think Siddharth (the guy with the job) did a good job at tackling this question, by stating that it is the undergraduate program that gets hype at IITs, which doesn’t necessarily imply research. We have the IISERs, ISIs, IMSc and IISc which are more of research institutes. While many (in fact most) IITians continue living and working in India, even those that leave the country do send money back. Too heartless, and too little contribution to the country, you think? Well, what is your neighbourhood businessman doing? Is he sacred just because he lives in India and cheats you? No, grow up. Realize that everybody first wants a good life for themselves. This is what the news host is doing, this is what the law guy will do when he graduates. It is unfair to single out IITs to take the blame for not producing enough people who “serve the community”. Siddharth even clearly points out that all the hype over a few super-jobs is even more unjustified, because average salaries aren’t all that high anyway.

Meanwhile, a tweet from a viewer was kind enough to point out that IITs get the hype because there aren’t enough institutes in India to match the high standards. Well, even IITs have glaring faults, if you ask me, but that’s a topic for another day. And then, our law guy goes full throttle again.

Law guy: Fat paychecks are not the hallmark of excellence of this institution. Any higher education institution is known by the research that its faculty and its professors do. What is the class research that the IITs have to boast of? It is admitted by the government itself that there is no class research going on in the IITs, and as a higher education institution has nothing to boast of in terms of excellent institutions. The IITs are not exactly teaching what the industry wants. How many of the big companies, whether it is Infosys, or the Tatas spend on training on IITians who come out of their institutions. Therefore, education is not really what’s happening at IITs. It’s perhaps better amongst the worst, and therefore, gets this kind of labelling that it does. [...] How many times is the curriculum of the IITs updated, or how dynamic is the curriculum of each of the departments at the IITs. This part said by the law guy made me shudder at how people can know zilch and be so confident. It is people like him who make populist statements, and tend to gain popular sympathy. But what’s inaccurate is inaccurate. Of course, fat paychecks say nothing, but again, let’s talk about research, since our law guy wants to define IITs by research. What research can IITs boast of? I doubt this law guy ever heard about the AKS Primality test, which was done in IIT Kanpur, by people from IIT Kanpur. It was path breaking, but I don’t expect the law guy to know about either primes or complexity classes. What does he know about the academic projects that the IITs pursue? I have personally worked on two good projects during my stay at IIT, as have many of my friends. The students of IIT Bombay have worked for years and made a goddamn satellite, as have students from one or two other IITs too. While I admit that research at IITs doesn’t compare with the likes of MIT, but compared to any other engineering college in India, IITs are way better. I say this because I’ve interacted with people from other colleges, seen the kinds of projects they do. I don’t intend to undermine anybody’s work here, but the fact is that the amount of exposure, and most importantly, the brilliant peer group and professors at IITs make a lot of good work accessible to students.

When did the government admit that IITs have no class research going on? Did Kapil Sibal wake up to this whim one day and draft the report? But I don’t want to get into uncited assertions. Talking of not “teaching what the industry wants”, has the law guy even compared how much Infosys and Tata are spending on training graduates from other colleges? Or does he expect IITs to have courses like “Tata 101″ or “Infosys 101″? Wake up law guy, IITs teach you general techniques, and you must apply them as needed. That probably needs training, but so will you, if you join a law firm that specializes in Cyber law.

I have no defense for the curriculum at IITs. It indeed is outdated in many departments. The Computer Science department at IIT Bombay has a very good and extensive curriculum, with some brilliant courses, but that is all I know, so I take offense when some uninformed non-expert with a mic undermines what I have studied, and what I know has merits. Other departments, I will not talk about, because, like a good man, I don’t judge things I have no knowledge about.

Tweet: Sending remittances back to the country is not the same as working in the country. Sending money home is not a favour to the country. Okay, well, Mr. Tweeter, what are you going to do instead? If you’re the average citizen, which I think you are, you are going to earn money and save it for yourself, for your family. Why do you expect saintly behaviour from students of IIT? Everyone wants the best for themselves, and some people have the skills to make it big, in whatever part of the world. Why does that make you angry Mr. Tweeter? I got a great opportunity to work with a good research group in the USA, does that mean I should not be here owing to some notions of pseudo-patriotism? No thank you, I believe in contributing to society, with whatever I do best.

Law guy: How many patents have IITs filed in recent years? Honestly, I’m losing track of the point in this debate. It looks more and more like one guy with a random vendetta, and another guy trying to introduce sanity into the discussion, while a stupid chick pitches in occasionally with misjudgment after misjudgment.

When I started writing this blog post, I was pretty charged with the stupidity I witnessed in this video, but now I’ve sort of numbed down, and it has become boring. The law guy goes on to state that in countries like the US and UK, with successful education systems, innovation has happened, blah blah. Dear law guy, give India the resources in terms of money and infrastructure, and a few dedicated people at the helm of affairs, and you will see how talented the students at IITs really are. You will also see the research and patents that you desperately crave for. Give us freedom to choose our majors, reduce the rigidity in the curriculum, make it more innovation oriented, and you will see the difference. Until then, just live with the fact that some (not all) of the best analytical minds in the country are in IITs, and they will keep getting the fat paychecks whether you like it or not.

And at this moment, as it always happens when the debate is getting heated or things are reaching a conclusion, the host pitched in and announced time’s up!

Just as an indication of how ill-conducted this entire debate was, here’s what the guy with the job has to say: https://www.quora.com/Siddharth-Bhattacharya/Posts/State-of-affairs-of-Indian-media-my-NDTV-interview

What do I have to say about this? Just shut the IITs down, will that make you people happy? Better still, let us put all the homeless people into the vast areas that IITs pointlessly occupy. Will that be enough contribution to the society by the IITs?

nRT

 

Footnotes    (↵ returns to text)
  1. What happened here? A final year student at IIT Delhi got a $150k job in the US. Yes, that is a lot of money, but by American standards, it isn’t like you’re Vijay Mallya. Of course, Indians simply treat the $ sign as x50, so all of a sudden, they cannot digest that a 20 something kid is going to earn that much, while they work in their dreary government offices with seeping walls. To expose the truth, NDTV came up with a “novel” show, in which they called a very very smart 2nd year law student to pass judgment on IITs and what they’ve done for the country. Also called is the guy with the new job, and they’re made to debate. A debate that obviously is not going to go anywhere.
  2. The guy with the job belongs to IIT Delhi. Why is the debate talking of placements at IIT Bombay? Weird.
  3. I will avoid saying this is a case of “sour grapes”, because I’m too humble to do that. And it would also be unfair to all the sane people out there, and my belief that the IITs really don’t ensure success.
  • http://skandhurkat.blogspot.com/ Skand Hurkat

    Honestly, I’m fed up of the obsession with the IITs. I had written a post (http://skandhurkat.blogspot.com/2011/09/stop-using-iits-for-your-political.html) long ago, about this, my views remain the same.

    Also, I think it’s foolish to expect anything that makes sense from a channel as biased and as stupid as NDTV. I may expect better from CNN IBN or Times Now.

    Keep calm, and compile code. :)

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      In this mad mad world, code is the only thing that seems to be sane. Until it stops compiling :)

      • Guest123

        Why doesn’t the code of IITians compile?

        • http://www.facebook.com/pforpallav Kumar Pallav

          IITian’s code will compile finally! But to say at the first attempt, is too much!

          • Guest from IITM

             Prof. Anurag Mittal’s code compiles

            • Guest from IITM

               Compiles first time, that is.

  • Ayush Baheti

    It is really annoying to watch stupid people propagate their baseless and tactless opinions about IITs in the popular media. The “so called debate” had nothing new to offer, it was one sided and full of questions that had nothing to do with the topic of the debate “Fat paychecks, but at what cost”  - which is not true in the first place. Even though it is extremely irritating, it is important for us to stop feeding these trolls and let them rot in their stupid version of reality.

  • Guna Prasaad

    Just as angry as I was after watching the stupid show. 

  • mahesh

    Ulla ka na jutre de naba

  • Sateeshkumar16

    ‘Why poor Indian show at Olympics years after years?’ Cause most of them have more basic needs to fulfill.

    • Guest123

      Why aren’t IITians getting more medals at the Olympics?

      • Jain Ashit

        Oh seriously moron!!.. now u r expecting a lot …

      • Rohit Nyati

        Haha!!  Guest 123, make IITians the PM, President and Sports Minister, and in a span of 10 years, I ensure you that we will be in top 5 in the medal tally!!

        Your comment made me laugh like anythn :)
        Is it a sports institute or something? IIT means, Indian Institute of Technology, Just google it once..

      • guest 12345

        well why arent others getting one?

  • Prashant Sohani

     yeah, the stupid misjudging chick! can’t honestly how you
     

  • NorthDakota

    Only constructive conclusion I could draw from this debate was – IITians need to improve on their English speaking skills. Let’s face it. If you’re the 2%, people are going to talk about you. If you can’t tackle them well, they are going to eat you in front of everyone.

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      You make a very valid point. Actually, the one who “sounds” more convincing is the one who is perceived to have won. Whether it is the US Presidential election debate, or these stupid TV shows.

    • Siddharth Bhattacharya

       Hi, I am the IITian out there. And my English-speaking skills are pretty good, which helped me clear US interview in the first place. Although I don’t see speaking English as a parameter as long as the debate is held within India. The point is whichever language the debate would have been conducted I would have spoken like that- I believed he is an expert, couldn’t see his face while Skyping. I respect elders and that’s what  I was doing

      • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

        Siddharth, don’t really want to question your English-speaking skills. In a scenario like that, it is easy for any normal person to not get a hold of the situation. Although, the sad thing is that people will never know (much less understand) your point of view, and for the viewers of that show, the verdict is out. Although, whether one should really care about those general viewers is the question.

  • http://www.facebook.com/saurabh.agrawal15.16 Saurabh Agrawal

    I have already given up on Indian media due to such stupid and senseless shows they have to air throughout the nation just for the cheap TRP…

  • http://www.facebook.com/saurabh.agrawal15.16 Saurabh Agrawal

    Indian media sucks in general… and yeah that chick is really irritating…

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1312940582 Rohit Nyati

    Mera desh mahaan !!
    I dnt understand why do people keep on poking everywhere, rather than minding own’s business.
    Our country is really paralysed bcz of the people, their thinking and their perception towards things. At least we, the youths , the future of our country should develop ourselves so we can contribute to the developing India, not just in monetary terms but in social and all round development terms as well !!

  • Rahul (Undergrad, IITG)

    “reduce the rigidity in the curriculum, make it more innovation oriented ”
    Isn’t that IITs’ prerogative and responsibility? The faculty can do that if they want (the course structure, rigidity I mean. Not infrastructure, labs etc). The attack was collectively on IIT not just on students.

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      The faculty have a lot of power in terms of how courses go. But by rigidity I meant the strict course requirements, and the general stagnation in course structure.

      • Rahul (Undergrad, IITG)

        That’s what I had meant. Course requirements and course structure. In IITG atleast the HoD has the authority to change it. 

        • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

          There is a dept. committee which decides course structure, and it takes in active feedback from students. The will is there, but the process slow.

  • Soham Harshe

    I think there is this general misconception in people’ s mind.

    I know almost 90% of the student who appear to JEE keep their normal life aside . they dont play sports, dont enjoy life and do nothing but studies. BUT here people make mistake !! Kid that got selected into IITs are actually smart kids and most of them are from those 10% who do not make sacrifices of their life just for IIT Entrance exam.

    IITians do play sports , do participate in social and cultural activities, they do serve to society !! 
    IITs have atmosphere better than any other college in india has !! IITians have enough freedom to learn anything they want, to become expert in any field as they wish. IITs do not ask students to mug up chapters for exam preparations. 
    IIT culture really respect students time and freedom . (at least it does more than any other college in india).

    Obviously IIT system has many loopholes but at least till the date it is the only cleanest education system in our country. and contribution of IITs to india’s society and economy is quite significant. 

    Law guy should spend some time with IIT students and live IIT life for somedays and then make such comments 

  • Pandu2 01

    I have one more question:
     Why IITians have not still taken over USA?
    The secret aim of establishing IITs was to infiltrate and overthrow world powers. IITians have failed miserably.

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      We were missing a leader like you, sir.

    • SecretSpy007

      Oyi! You just scrapped our plans! It no longer remains a secret! :(
      Nishant! Delete his post bru! :P 

  • http://twitter.com/Sir_Lundry TheLaundryGuy

    1)Kathy Bushkin, Executive Vice-President of the UN Foundation said:
    Fifty years ago, the UNESCO helped to create the IITs as a means of providing superior education to Indians and spurring developments in the country. Today, IIT has helped India become a world leader in science and technology — proving that when we work together, we acheive remarkable progress. (2) Lesley Stahl of CBS on 60 Minutes said:”Put Harvard, MIT and Princeton together and you begin to get an idea of the status of IITs in India.”. (3)Bill Gates, the co-founder and chaiman of Microsoft, in his speech at India Institute of Technology 50th Anniversary Celebration:IIT and Microsoft do have a lot in common, an optimism about the future, a belief that fundamental science will lead to breakthroughs that will let us solve some of the toughest problems that mankind faces, a belief that we can provide better tools than ever before and that we’ve really just scratched the surface.And it’s hard to think of anything like IIT anywhere in the world. It is a very unique institution. (4) In Salon Magazine Per capita, IIT has produced more millionaires than any other undergraduate institution.
    (5) The Wall Street Journal, on 16 April 2003.The IITs became islands of excellence by not allowing the general debasement of the Indian system to lower their exacting standards. You couldn’t bribe your way to get into an IIT…Candidates are accepted only if they pass a grueling entrance exam. The government does not interfere with the curriculum, and the workload is demanding…Arguably, it is harder to get into an IIT than into Harvard or the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      They’re all very flattering comparisons, but honestly, I think they go over the top in some places. There are major issues with the admission process and with the course structure, but the brilliance of the student community cannot be denied.

  • Utkarsh Kota

    I am an Nitian and really agree with you. Getting into an IIT is a big deal and They are great brains of country. But after getting there most of the people are not using their brains. Ofcourse exceptions are everywhere. Excessive pride should be removed from minds of IITians and they need to be made a bit more humble. And finally, resources and will of these great minds in less in terms of research and development. Thats why IIT comes at 40th rank in the world.

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      You are overgeneralizing here. People who enter IIT have good analytical skills, more or less. It is not the case that people entering IIT aren’t using their brains. They’re doing a lot of interesting stuff, which you probably never get to hear about (along with many others who indeed are wasting their time as well). And please get over this “excessive pride” which you perceive IITians to have.

    • Ravi Kanoje

      I felt a bit sad with the “excessive pride” thing. I don’t know where people are getting that from, but trust me most of the iitians DON’T like to brag about being an iitian. (as you mentioned yourself, there are exceptions everywhere)I think it’s the way that people have started to see us is leading to this pride concept, they have formed an image in their minds about IITs, like getting in IIT is a big deal, all iitians get fat paychecks. I’m not saying all of these concepts are wrong, but try to look at us like any other engineering student. Most of us love gaming, watch movies,play football and cricket.

      Talking about brains:
      From what i think you want to say by ” not using their brains ” is that you expect every iitian to contribute to research,do great technical work and develop technology.
      Firstly, not all iitians are successful,everyone in some point of their life taste failure. As i mentioned we are also from same species called engineering students. Many develop their interest in different things. We have some really amazing photographers, dancers, sportsperson in our campus. I remember one iitian went abroad to work and ended up pursuing his interest in medical science.  Every one has their own interest and priorities in life. As Nishant said, we believe in contributing to society with whatever we do best.

  • Siddharth Bhattacharya

    Hi Nishant, http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog/2012/12/06/lets-shut-the-iits-down/

                               It’s an honor to have a blog post by you featuring me. You probably didn’t know me before the interview (or my Quora answers) but at IIT Delhi Maths & Computing, we all have heard of you :)

                               Coming to the point. Thanks for sharing the Quora post link. One major purpose of that was exposing how Indian media functions and all that we have been fed for years by the media- truth value of it. Also I would have liked to pen a blogpost myself, you eased it for me. It’s a real futile discussion, some people won’t get convinced whatever you say. Also I had said AKS primality there, which was interrupted by ‘no of patents’. Quite senseless and pointless discussion truly. And it has indeed gone too far now.

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      Hi Siddharth. I know you from your Quora answers, but didn’t know it was you in the show until someone pointed it out to me, after which I hoped you would make some clarifications on what exactly happened during the show (which you did!). So yeah, I do understand that with what was told to you, it was really hard to get a hold of what was going on. It looked as if the entire debate was doctored to suit the law guy.

      The AKS primality part was hilarious, really :D. I went full facepalm right there! Just when I thought that you could have pointed out some hard facts, it was time to end the show, without any meaningful conclusion. That was irresponsible. The host was more interested in asking people to post tweets and advertise her show than actually listening to what others were talking about.

      • Siddharth Bhattacharya

         A junior tweeted in between the show ‘So yet again the people relish their time by bashing IITians. It’s becoming a national pastime”. However they chose to ignore it, and read the other tweet on the screen.

        Anyways, I have answered that question as well just now where the question poster asks about restrictions imposed for N years in India. I have spent a considerable amount of my time writing on these IIT questions, convinced some but adamant ones won’t buy any logical arguments.

        Apart from that, I got a feedback that the other guy was wearing an India flag in his T shirt (contradict to the fact I am flying to US), which inched the debate further to his side and a non-engineering friend of mine said “I didn’t pay much attention to the arguments, but overall he spoke more fluently than you”. It’s sad if this goes on to reflect anything about the national perception.

        • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

          Rationalism is a luxury these days. I mean, I can give evidence and counter every point that the other guy was making. He wants people going into arts? I know such people – those that have joined music and dance programs after being introduced to these things only in IIT. I have a friend who really wants to join a Linguistics program now. He wants to talk about research in IITs? I guess you know all about it just as well as I do. Lets just face it, this guy was biased from the word go, and was in no mood to listen. Maybe he wanted to enhance his public image.

          • Siddharth Bhattacharya

            It’s no point defending. Overall I don’t think these rants can be harming us much.  When they do indeed go into any of the other fields mentioned like arts, policy etc the question raised is “if they had to go there, why did they enter technology and waste someone else’s seat?”. So someone is sitting with a bullet on the head whatever you do, so the best to do is keep calm and carry on :)

  • Marc Vaz

    In terms of the interest shown by companies in recruiting candidates (with higher paychecks if need be), doesn’t this market demand itself serve as a strong counter-argument against claims that the education at IITs isn’t industry oriented or that the actual sum spent training an IIT undergraduate once they enter the company is large. The decisions made by companies are business decisions driven by clear concepts of profit and loss, thus companies are only willing to pay the price if what they get in return is a candidate who in the long term will justify this price. At least as a question of justification as to whether the salaries are justified I think the fact that it is an open market is sufficient proof that they are.

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      Despite this, people who show up on TV gain mileage out of their pseudo-socialist ideas and fairness arguments.

  • Poojan Shah

    Media will never understand certain things!

  • http://www.facebook.com/sriram.bhargav Sriram Bhargav

    Hi Nishant, I think i received $150k job offer from Samsung Electronics contradicting your FootNote No.2 and I’m IIT Bombay(your junior :D).

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      Oh damn, is that the case? So that makes you and @b75c5316230fd5471650b8f2a8030337:disqus right? Still, there was no mention to you, yet a mention to IIT Bombay. That was weird, don’t you think?

      • Siddharth

         No, actually I didn’t such a hi-flying job. I am from IIT-Delhi, got placed at Epic. Which is 110k $ (sad that media declares salaries publicly). But as you see the show had nothing to do with either, they had to just make a fuss

        • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

          Aah, alright, now the picture is clear. But dude, what they don’t understand is that these are pre-tax salaries, and after tax, they’re just good salaries (as I’ve mentioned already). I mean, as a PhD student, if my pre-tax salary was converted to INR, the media would be making it news – “WHY DO STUDENTS GET PAID SO MUCH!”, but the reality is that I barely save every month.

          • Siddharth Bhattacharya

             Yeah, I realized that soon enough :( About 40 % taxes to give to the US govt :( Moreover H1B visa has certain restrictions on the minimum salary. It takes into care all of it.
            However I have been reading the comments on this thread and am confirmed of stubbornness of some regarding things and would have loved to counter them, but there’s a basic threshold of logic in an argument to whom we can explain things. And some like “Non IITian” clearly fell below that.

  • Lateymahesh

    Nishant Superlike to this blog..:) i would like to add 1 more point..the law guy said that due to hype of IIT  our coubtry isbt able 2 produce gudd sportsperson..Firstly if only he is so worried abt sports in India he shudnt have been a lawyer..nd Secondly after the Dissolution of our Olympic Federation nd the mess that our IOA has become Idont think any sane parent wud want their child 2 get into sports..and they wud surely prefer Engg or Medical over sports..:)

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      Yeah well, I don’t really like it that parents meddle too much into the career of their children in India. As for the sad state of sports management, that is a topic for another day.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ankur.debbarma.7 Ankur Debbarma

    the

  • http://www.facebook.com/ankur.debbarma.7 Ankur Debbarma

    The
    most hilarious thing is that they say we don’t have lives in IIT’s and
    what we all do is keep on mugging mechanically. I’ll tell them to visit
    any one of these institutes and they’ll see what having a life means.

     

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      Absolutely! I know people who have gone into music and dance programs after graduating (after pursuing seriously these arts after joining IITs). The kind of freedom and challenges we have at IIT are enormous, and practically anybody can make the most of his/her life during that time.

  • Anon

    ” I don’t intend to undermine anybody’s work here, but the fact is that the amount of exposure, and most importantly, the brilliant peer group and professors at IITs make a lot of good work accessible to students.”….A point well made…please highlight this point….

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      How much more can I highlight this point? I mean, the whole point I’m trying to make is that everyone is capable of doing good work, no doubt, but some places can give you more opportunities than others, and that is what the IITs do. Now biased people will just never understand this point.

  • Not IITian

    It is easy to hide behind SUPPOSEDLY ‘logical’ and ‘rational’ arguments while interior is hollow. If you are so logical why do IITians fail miserably in HSS type fields? No communication skills. Pathetic English. The bare minimum thing taught in law school is good presentation skills.

    IITians play against each other in Inter IIT and consider themselves great sportsmen. If they are really good, why they don’t play for Asian Games (I am not even mentioning Olympics. That is too high for you guys). 

    If you are good movie maker, get filmfare. If you are good chess player become Vishwanathn Anand. What is the point of mediocrity? Please answer this.

    This is all a case of apne muh miya mitthu banna. All hype and no substance. This blog just confirms my belief that IITians are good-for-nothings with bloated egos.

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      Okay, Not IITian. Let me tell you something in no uncertain terms. I have clearly stated that I DO NOT WANT to undermine anybody’s work. The entire blog was just to point out that the heavily biased arguments made against IITs on the show are exactly that – biased. Come on, IITs are not training you for greatness in sports or other fields. They are engineering schools. All I’m pointing out is that IITians do not give up on extra curricular activities (for leisure), as the law guy in the video very blatantly says. It is foolish to expect IITians to do well in fields which are not theirs, just as it would be foolish to expect lawyers to do well in others. Yes, IITians on an average might have poor presentation skills, but they do have good analytical skills. For me, it makes sense to combines all the abilities we got, and work for a better society, rather than blame each other for being bad at a particular thing. I don’t like spreading hatred, and I don’t like making people feel worthless. Judge IITians on their technical skills, and then talk about mediocrity.

      • Not IITian

        “Yes, IITians on an average might have poor presentation skills, but they do have good analytical skills. ”
        Very convenient for you to say that. But sorry boss you can’t give half the responsibility to others because you are the country’s main hope for development. All other colleges are bullshit, and other fields are in crappy state. You are having job security, that is your main benefit so you have the unfortunately responsibility of excelling in other fields.

        For example if you are from a shitty college and you want to become a cricketer, you can’t because what if you don’t get successful? How to feed family then. But from IIT you can easily become top musician sportperson because if you fail you can go to a shitty assured job but get paid to live.

        IITians have to understand that they are the only hope of the country. And this hope is being crushed by unpatriotic people like you (no offence to you personally) go abroad at first opportunity and flaunt it and contribute to American GDP while claiming that sending some cash back leads to developed India. 

        Maybe some Economics course will be better for you.

        • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

          The only hope. Right. Well in that case, I apologize to you, for putting my personal interests and hoping for a better life for myself before the welfare of society. That’s what I’m saying, shut the IITs down, they’re useless.

        • Prahadeesh G

          “But from IIT you can easily become top musician sportperson because if you fail you can go to a shitty assured job but get paid to live.”

          Its “shitty”(in your language) logic to expect an IIT student to put fight and try to become a musician (or) sportsperson.

        • Siddharth Bhattacharya

           Hi Non-IITian,

                    I am the guy on the TV show, so I would speak to your accusations directly. First of all, IITians have bad communication skills in English is such an appalling generalization. I for instance have good enough communication skills. Also IIMs have high proportion of IITians clearing, which requires verbal and communication skills. However large number of students come from small cities, and it’s abysmal to expect them to have good English considering it depends a lot on schooling rather than college. Also English I don’t consider is an important parameter AT ALL in judging an individual or institution. After all, English isn’t India’s language and there’s no reason why anyone should complain about someone not having good English, as long as the nation is India.

                   Also coming to your point on bad HSS skills- I personally have done 8 Humanities courses with an average grade of 8.7 (>> my CGPA). I don’t think if you are a non-engineering student you’d do even 2 courses of the sort that are done here, with abstract mathematics and advanced algorithms. That’s a reason why IITians are hyped in the market actually- they know little bit of everything, apart from being good in their own subject (which is what is required).

                   Also let me give you a small lesson on economics. It’s called ‘Demand-Supply’. As you declare “IITians are the only hope of the country” (although I don’t admit it personally). Also there is an expectation of them becoming good sportsmen and what not, as well as wanting them to be good in their fields of research as well as engineering. What does it mean? The demands are pretty high, while the supply is pretty low (5000 students every year being the nation’s only hope). As a result, the price of these individuals increases. If the bidders are not able to give these panacea the necessary returns in lieu of getting the nation’s problems solved by them, they will move on to the next candidate and serve the nation as they see fit there. Dictating morals to rational agents with high prices won’t work unfortunately. Another economics lesson: it’s called OPPORTUNITY COST. By opting out of a good job, an IITian has more to lose than an other college grad. If he starts up which makes very less compared to what he could have got from his job, he would have missed an opportunity. Same way it works for sports and everything else. On the other hand, as you put it a student “from a shitty college” has lesser scope of getting a good job (on an average). He has less to lose by opting for being a cricketer. Thus the more you make, the higher are the risks of leaving such a path. A final lesson on economics. Life is NOT a zero-sum game. Increases USA’s GDP doesn’t mean reducing India’s. I can be doing both by paying taxes to the US govt, while sending remittances back home. This service to the nation is no lesser than that of someone who stayed back and lived his daily life. For one, the expat also didn’t consume national resources while giving back.

                    One thing is clear, you love making assumptions about IIT students: bad communication, poor HSS- this and that. Another is there are two sides to every coin. And one last thing: it’s fabulous to stay outside and keep demanding. What hurts is being on the receiving end. I am thinking of starting to criticize businessmen who evade taxes from tomorrow despite tax subsidies for running their businesses, criticize lawyers for leaving the country’s jurisdiction in such shambles, footballers for not having qualified for a single World Cup till date. But then on rethinking, I decided to something worthwhile with my own life and leave the criticism to people who don’t want to do so.

    • Aditya

       IITians don’t need presentation skills to do research or solve industrial problems you dumbo. Lawyers need that. And please no IITian is claiming to be a great sportsman. The point the author is making is that they do have extra-curricular activities. And your point in later comment that since IITians have job security they should excel in sports in ridiculous. Do you know what it takes to be an Olympian. Full time commitment to the sport. Just read about the Saina Nehwal. I can’t believe what a shit-head you are to think that IITians are to be blamed for not winning Olympics. Dude do you know that Viswanath Anand is a full time chess player. If I am good at some particular field like chess or music or acting I wouldn’t go to IIT, rather I will hone my skills and be the award winning person you are expecting IITians to become. If you believe that IITians are good-for-nothing, so be it. The author is just trying to defend the IITians against the unnecessary hatred people like you are having towards us for NOT GETTING MEDALS IN OLYMPICS,

    • IITan

      Dear Not IITan,
      As an IITan, your post has just amused me with a display of your state of ignorance and prejudice. Let me break down my reply in parts. I have added commas as my English is inferior to yours and unlike you Sir, I haven’t evolved to the stage where commas are too trivial for my writing.

      “It is easy to hide behind SUPPOSEDLY ‘logical’ and ‘rational’ arguments
      while interior is hollow. If you are so logical, why do IITians fail
      miserably in HSS type fields? No communication skills. Pathetic English.
      The bare minimum thing taught in law school is good presentation
      skills.”

      The first thing is that IITans don’t care about HSS type fields and I’m not sure about them failing these courses. Not a single IITan has failed any of the HSS electives and we actually perform better than the majority of Humanities Students taking up these courses. While I agree that my communication skills and presentation skills aren’t taught unlike in a law school, I have been able to developed them on my own, with something known as common sense. A department you are clearly weak in. My English, by the way is pathetic. I still haven’t figured out how to write without using any commas unlike you and I’m still trying to understand Sarcasam with my Nerd glasses and sitting in my spot will yelling “Bazinga”

      “IITians play against each other in Inter IIT and consider themselves
      great sportsmen. If they are really good, why they don’t play for Asian
      Games (I am not even mentioning Olympics. That is too high for you
      guys)”

      It is human nature to feel happy when you win something whether trivial or not. I have tried searching for public forums where IITans express their joy on winning Inter-IIT, but I couldn’t find any. So I’m guessing, you got this joy from a friend, who expected you to share his happiness while clearly underestimating your common sense and modesty.

      “If you are good movie maker, get filmfare. If you are good chess
      player become Vishwanathn Anand. What is the point of mediocrity? Please
      answer this.”

      What in the name of Hell does this even have to do with the point in question? Just to answer, these are hobbies pursued by most people not their careers. So they can afford to be good in competition with people like you, but need not win National Awards. These help us improve our “pathetic communication” and social skills.

      “This is all a case of apne muh miya mitthu banna. All hype and no
      substance. This blog just confirms my belief that IITians are
      good-for-nothings with bloated egos”

      Yes, we are good-for-nothings with bloated egos and you, sir are the right person to point that out. This is like a dictator slamming a country for not being democratic enough.

    • Jatin

      I suppose the Mr. “Not IITian” is a fellow from Law School and the frustration is pretty clear in your arguments. 
      One thing I have learned at IITs is to never state any fact without any sound base. You instead, surprisingly, assuming you are from Law School, have said things like – Pathetic English, No communication skills etc. Have you ANY SORT of idea and a good ground work on this. Sit with a bunch of IITians and trust me brother they will teach you all the HSS things that will take you 9 lives to absorb completely. 

      And yes, what do you expect IITians to do ? Play sports, sing, dance ? In case you forgot they study ENGINEERING and all things mentioned are EXTRA-CURRICULAR. We do well in what we study and are good at. It’s unfortunate for you guys that you don’t get paid so much. Learn from your mistake and make sure your child gets into IITs (which I am definitely sure you will, even if you sound all anti-IIT rationalist).

      The debate can go night long and one thing’s for sure, you would give up and go to your monotonous work because I being a proud IITian, can sit for nights debating on this topic.  

    • Bleh!

      IITians do not fail in HSS type fields. (I wonder what is HSS’s type, but ignoring that). Having had amazing discussions with IITians about topics ranging from Economics to History to Literature I can vouch for this one fact. I will also give you a reason why they are good at it. Half of the IITians do not know whether they are cut out for engineering. They prepare for JEE (by the way there is no real compromise on life while doing so. they do go out for movies, have fun every once in a while), clear it because they are smart and in most cases because they are hard-working and committed people, and arrive in an IIT. Pursue engineering, and pursue those other fields too which appeal to them. There is enough time and people to indulge oneself.

      A lot of them would take up jobs after graduating, won’t consider higher education (does not matter), would stay back in the country and work. You disagree but well, I know there is no way I can change your mind now, can I? But while they are at college, they would spend their four years exploring other avenues like HSS “type” fields. You would be stumped at the number of times IITians get to hear that they should be pursuing writing, music (that’s not HSS), psychology, economics.

      I am from an IIT, and I like engineering. Love it in fact. But trust me, I can kick butt when it comes to discussions about Politics and History. It’s a passion, I follow it everyday, have enough like-minded people in IIT to discuss it with. And you know what, I am not even the best person in there. There are few people who are amazing engineers, and god, they are so well-versed with International affairs. And not because they want to go into management or join IAS later (A lot of IITians do take UPSC exams too. No one considers that sadly)

      Oh, and I debate once in a while. Have attended a few debates here and there. Obviously, Law students are better than our teams. Shame for them if they would not be. But I am in no way any less informed about any of the topics that are given for these debates. By the way, in these competitions, I see a lot of people from Liberal Arts too. The factual errors some of them make are pathetic. They should not make those errors, and I really have a hard time giving them a benefit of doubt when they come and say  “Hitler was never Stalin’s friend.” Right!

      I am not going to defend any thing else. But my experience is that people in IITs are more well-rounded than you can EVER imagine.

      P.S – Oh, most of them have good speaking skills. Not all, but most. And I don’t understand why so much fuss even if they are not good at English. A lot of people are not good at Hindi, the much used language for communicating in IITs and NITs. We are never lunging for their throats. A lot of Japanese, Chinese, European nations are not good at English. Why so much fuss Sir? As long as point is put forth and understood, it suffices.

    • Sweet Grapes

       “IITians fail in HSS type fields”. You know what? They fail in medicine too.
      I am sure guys from your engineering college do better in ‘HSS type fields’. Unfortunatley they are studying to become engineers.

    • Asd

      Mr. NonIITian, are you nuts? You are expecting IITians to forget engineering and prepare of Asian Games and compete for Filmfare? IITs are engineering institutes and that is what they do best. All other things are ancillary.
      There is already a better reply to this comment by Jatin but I just couldn’t stand what you are saying. I think your concept of ‘rational’ and ‘logical’ or different as you expect IITians to represent India in sports and make films. To all buffoons like you I have just have one thing to say – ‘meh’. 

    • Oneamongyou

      “This blog just confirms my belief that IITians are good-for-nothings with bloated egos.”
      I see you have tried,albeit unsuccessfully, to veil your prejudice under “belief”.

      While i agree that some may have bloated egos,do you think recruiters are fools to hire ”good-for-nothings” by paying so much.

    • IITian

      Well then you shuld also expect Sir Vishwanathan Anand to be a world-class singer and Mr Rehman to be an astronaut.

  • Aayush Pin 1993

    Hey. Im 1st year student ucla comp sci, and my concern with iit students is that, why havent we ever heard of any iitian( past 20 years) invented something, or had an idea which could have changed the world “”as they are the very best minds of my nation””

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      Because the IITs do not reward innovation. Haven’t I admitted that there are flaws with the system? This blog is for pointing out the unnecessary and misjudged hatred towards IITians.

      • Aayush Pin 1993

        I dont hate iitians , in fact most of my friends have just got into iits. Not rewarding innovations i think is the worst thing that could happen , since now what we all require is something that could meet our energy requirements and ensure our future. And thinking logically ” chances of a youngster getting it right is the highest”. All we can do is hope that someone from somewhere will come and rescue our lives . ……O:-)

  • S4sreeju

    there is one thg that i want to add , there is no point shutting down india’s best institution.
    but the best cream of technical ppl should b used by the country for various purpose like  to increase our country strength.
    lik in building the best cyber army and defense encryption network. or they should compalsaraly   work for the givt for a year or so aftal the govt spends a lot to keep al the IIT’s afloat 

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      Any kind of restrictions ruin free thought and talent. Innovation cannot be restrained by laws. If I know I will do good at theoretical computer science, there is no possible reasoning that justifies forcing me to stay at a particular place.

  • Dileep

    That is one really sensible blog post I have seen about this issue along with the Quora answer given by Siddarth. I just have a few thoughts to add. One: Every Indian who works in India is not a patriot, and every Indian who works abroad is not a traitor.  Two: You want to really have some intellectual discussion with sensible and unbiased arguments, please follow the Oxfordian style of debate where each side has an equal opportunity. Three: Before comparing research in IITs with other institutions abroad, look at the funding they get and how much we get. And finally to people who bring nonsensical arguments to the table, I humbly say quoting Shakespeare, “I would love to challenge you to a battle of wits, but I see that you are unarmed”. 

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      All three points taken! Also, I really wonder how the organizers of this show would respond to these.

  • the law

    Ooo, its a really hot debate going on here. I dont want to say much , but stick to my words as i do think that iits and iitians are just tooo much to ask for. By the way i m the law guy u all see here.

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      You mean in the video? I highly doubt that.

      • Aakash

        Yeah , you r right . Keep thinking that ,nishant.

  • Satishsagar83

    in any other nation, the IIT system would have been scrapped long time back. IIT are part of india, but IITians and media make india a part of IIT.

    • Nehatiya

       very rightly said sir..These are just morons here…

  • Karan Dhingra

    Oh my fucking god, when will this IIT bashing stop? 

    Now that I’ve read Siddharth’s Quora post on how the ‘debate’ was conducted, I feel very pissed. That lawyer guy just threw all logic out of the window. Prime example of someone NOT possessing any analytical skills at all. He brings up patents and research when the topic is undergrad salaries. The fuck was that? Then he started going off on absurd tangents. The moderator was a dumbass. She kept egging him on all along. The tweets were borderline retarded. I don’t think I can come up with enough expletives to describe how badly this whole affair was conducted. 

    Well, this also goes on to show why some other Indians, like the to-be lawyer and the moderator, are not recruited by top firms. They just aren’t good enough and they feel the need to adopt a holier-than-thou attitude to make themselves feel better.

    My reaction to this is so visceral because I am deeply disappointed by the media. I held them to higher standards than this farce.

    Thanks Siddharth and Nishant for posting this/talking about this. You guys deserve the rewards of your efforts. This stuff is just sad.

  • Vivek Verma

    The law guy won’t understand nRT I suppose you used before the footnotes :)
    I really liked the use of it though :)

  • Nehatiya

    IITs suck..They are just a waste of taxpayers money…Most of them run away to US and write stupid blog posts to vent out their anger from US…

    • Keima Katsuragi

       We got a badass here !! I really hope you really feel what you wrote above. Cuz then you should be shooting some politicians right now ! They ‘waste’ more money….

      • Nehatiya

        If some one wastes my money that doesnt mean i go around and shoot them..Is it what they taught you at IIT…
        But they dont write unnecessary blog posts to cry jus to get attention…
        As far as i see i dont find any difference between you and a corrupt politician…

        • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

          Relax, miss. Let’s get rid of all the hatred, and think clearly. What @google-5f674fbf5f44066f79d809589333213e:disqus  is plainly using hyperbole, understand that. And you have a right to your opinion, so lets just end it there, shall we?

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      While I don’t intend to pick fights with people, I wish to point something out. That this blog post was NOT meant to defend IITs. It was just meant to indicate that a lot of the hatred is misguided. IITians themselves criticize the IITs on many occasions themselves, but that doesn’t mean people with no knowledge should make incorrect claims.

  • Keima Katsuragi

     I never knew being an IITian brought so much hatred and disgust from others ! Feel like I have a target on my back now…

  • Mayank shah

    Its just a stupid guy with meaningless hatred towards IIT. Everything has a bright and dark side. Agreed IIT’s are backward in some fields but that just doesn’t mean they are bad.
    Just FYI i am a non-IITian and even private colleges have some bad qualities.

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      Thank you for making sense! :)

  • Saloni

    gud job! i agree IITs are targeted unnecessarily. with ppl out there making so much hype about even a tiny-winy event at IIT, they dont realize its them who make IIT a brand. and then they complain IIT is becoming a brand. .

  • Rishabh

    I think his son couldn’t get into IIT thats why all this hatred ! :P

  • http://www.facebook.com/aniruddhjammoria Aniruddh Jammoria

    IITians are easy targets, because we are stereotyped into “guys who don’t have a life” who go on to get fat paychecks. Oh, by the way, did you know the reason why India fails to produce sportspersons? It’s because all kids are busy preparing for IIT and don’t get a chance to go out and play.

  • Nehatiya

    Ok agreed The  interview was a little biased and there is a hatred against IITs..But has anyone thought why so..?
    Why only about IITs,not about IIMs etc?
    Why no media hype for MIT,stanford etc …..

    1)Because its general mentality of indian people…We respect people for financial credits or power they have…
    IITs tend to have highest pacakages in the country and all hype is regarding that…
    While if you go to US not many cares what salary one has..They value for education and knowledge….
    Accept it we want the hype …

    2)IITians are not 100% innocent..I have met many IITians who claim to be far superior to others just because of his 10L package or so called JEE rank in a 6 hour objective exam with the help of two years of coaching…Generally i find it disgusting people mentioning salaries for ones superiority…So these stereotyping is in place because of IITians mentality itself…

    • Nehatiya

      PS: i never so any blog post of any IITian  criticizing media hype as unwanted ..How does media even get to know about the packages at IITs which are supposed to be confidential..?..So they are fine with all prasing but cannot take a little bit of criticism….

      • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

        To clarify, media hype IS unwanted. The media is jobless, there are many ways it can know about stuff.

        • Nehatiya

          Yes as you told hype is unwanted..But people want it…Thats the point…
          May be people find IITs as a way to get rich ….

          • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

            End of discussion for me.

    • SecretSpy007

       I don’t get it. In your first point you clearly mentioned that its the mentality of Indian people which creates this unjust hatred towards IITs and IITians. Then you again say you find it disgusting when people say they’re superior just because of their salaries.
      So how is the hatred justified?
      Aren’t you actually speaking against the hatred? Rather than explaining what you said in your first sentence. The “why so..?” part. Why only about IITs and not about IIMs?

  • http://www.facebook.com/ankur.gupta.5661 Ankur Gupta

    Hi Nishant, You might not remember me, but I met you long back in 2008.

    Well, its really good that you came out with what you feel but it is disappointing to see that many people think so negatively about IIT students in general. If you go to Quora there are just list of questions asking very negative things about IIT. I went through some of the comments on this blog itself and as if people want to prove desperately that IITs are the worst thing that could have happened. People say that IITians are cocky and have inflated ego whereas I have really met many very nice and down to earth people. People say that IITians don’t know how to speak whereas I find them normally confident, infact few of them are really good in their speaking skills. People say that IITians don’t know how to play sports where IIT sports team are a decent team. IITians don’t have a life whereas the biggest cultural fests are from students who work extremely hard to make it a success. Ofcourse, IITs may not be the best in these things but we all live like a normal college student. There are students who might be cocky, there are students who do not know how to speak english but that is true for any other college. We work hard for a job and we work hard to make it through IIT. Yes, few students get really high paying jobs but there is a substantial amount of student gets a job that other colleges will also get. I just don’t get why everybody is looking to frame an opinion without knowing the complete story. Maybe Nishant, we are wrong somewhere…!

    • Nehatiya

       i am what you dream to be!! I saw this on an IITians tee shirt …Says it all….

      • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

        There are egotistic IITians, there are humble IITians, and then there are the stupid ones who make Tshirts like the one you saw.

        • Nehatiya

           But these kind of egoistic T Shirts exists only with IITs…not anywhere else in the world…

          • sam

            I beg to differ. I remember a classmate of mine who had a nice collection of similar shirts in NITK Surathkal (where I did BTech). Lots of people make T shirts like them, not just IITs. Its a human thing.

        • Nehatiya

          Same way there are humble people and stupid ones like in the interview..I dont understand why make it a big deal..

          • Asheesh Agrawal

            Because these stupid people are on a national news channel. Does one need to say more?

            • Nehatiya

               How many shows of Indian media even make any sense(Ex Roadies)…This ones one of the lame shows…An one with basic common sense can understand whatever told by them is stupid…I dont understand why  someone like nishant(or any IITian) should fight with these guys who have zero idea about IITs…For example have you seen Roadies..Do you find anyone wasting their time trying to prove what Raghu,Rajeev or Ranvijay say on the show…why????

              If you really want to argue pick some one of your own size…Like this one
              http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/poor-quality-of-students-entering-iits-narayana-murthy-138260

      • abhishek

         It’s offensive, cause it’s true….

  • Priya

    Only in this country we have so much of hatred against a most sought after college in other countries they are held in high esteem and they are proud to have them, no one in hates a Stanford (private) or a University of Illinois (state school). They are all proud to have produced successful people.
    We should be proud that International companies are coming to India in search of talents and paying top salaries.
    Folks are jealous of fat pay check they have been offered (which by the way would go probably only to less 1% of the IITans and not all), they dont see that it did not come them easily the kids sweated it out, did a lot out of their curriculum and went to through a grueling interview to get the top slot.
    They have earned it and it was not handed over in a platter to them.
    Did anybody read the story of the fresher who wants to come back and become an IAS officer after working in Google and gaining International Experience.
    Let us be proud of our IIT’s and the products they are producing and not get into so much of negativity.

    • Nehatiya

      Agreed there is lot of hatred against IITs but it has nothing to do with Fat pay checks offered…If that was the case we would have seen a similar angst against IIMs,ISB also which is completely absent…The hatred can be more attributed to huge money spend on each IITian,Brain Drain or abysmal  research rather than Fat pay checks…

      “Did anybody read the story of the fresher who wants to come back and
      become an IAS officer after working in Google and gaining International
      Experience.”

      If one is interested in IAS he should/will directly try after graduation..Whats the point in working in google and coming back?
      There are several cases where IIT/IIM graduates rejecting international offers for IAS…
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raju_Narayana_Swamy

      • http://www.facebook.com/ankur.gupta.5661 Ankur Gupta

         I am sure there are many critics who will also say that if one had to go to IAS anyway, why did you waste the governments money to study in IIT for 4/5 years…

        • Nehatiya

           What do you expect directly join IAS after schooling?

          In fact you have no clue about IAS officers..Who do you expect at senior management levels at core engineering departments of india like CDOT,railways PSUs etc…Its the IAS officers and the Engineering background definitely aids the government..

        • Nehatiya

          Not any random critic,Parliamentary Standing Committee on Home Affairs …
          http://www.thehindubusinessline.in/2003/04/25/stories/2003042500050800.htm

          Noting with deep concern the increased migration of graduates of IITs,
          and engineering and medical colleges to All-India Services, the
          Committee has said that this is tantamount to wastage of professional
          skills acquired at great cost and “throwing the funds spent on the
          candidates’ professional education down the drain”.

      • Shushman

        Wow maam you really do not have a clue do you? 
        “The hatred can be more attributed to huge money spend (past tense anyone?!) on each…” Now not even bringing up the issue of whether that is accurate (though that in and of itself could be hotly contested), how by any strand of logic, reason and common sense can the blame for that be given to the students?! Students of IIT have absolutely no role to play in the money allotted to their institution by the government! Most do not even know or care about that allotment! :OEssentially it is like saying that if a person pays more than the MRP for a product, the makers of the product should be taken to task! 
        In retrospect, given your obvious lack of basic sense and judgment, as evinced by your comment here, the other statements you have made throughout this page seem less ludicrous and more in character! :D

        • Nishant Deshai

          lets see..
          http://www.iitbombay.org/news/Current/iits-moot-creeping-hike-in-student-fees
          “In its presentation, the IIT has said calculations had shown that the
          institutes spend Rs 4 lakh — or $10,000 — a student annually.”

          Seems accurate to me…

          Are you insane….Your logic as same sense that i have no responsibility to my parents because i didnt ask for them to support me…

          In fact what i mentioned was the hatred can be attributed to many reasons including govt funding which is significant on IITs but negligible engineers come and support nation..

          PS:i didint do any Grammar Checks..

          • Shushman

            See this is the problem in arguing with people who are not blind, but who simply refuse to see.

            When, good Sir, did I ever raise the point of not having responsibility to the nation? In fact, graduates of IIT have contributed as much, if not more, to the development of this nation as graduates of any other institute, and many of them have a far greater sense of responsibility than random naysayers such as yourself (there are always exceptions but then those exist in all places independent of the institution – don’t be so immature as to think otherwise).The alarming trend I was referring to comes from the sentiment expressed by the lady, and it seems yourself, that we should hate *students* of IIT because the *Government* gives the IITs more money! The correct analogy to that would not be the cliched and self-serving one you raised, but rather that of hating a child just because his parents give him good things. 

            Sir, please either bring your mind into this discussion or leave it for those who will…And yes you obviously did not do any grammar checks – the number of horrible errors in your comment would have made the task quite daunting it seems – and they say IITians have bad English :P

            • Neha Tiya

              i commented using a male account so that you need not face the sexual starvation problem here…:P

              If you want a honest debate please shed the IITian ego.

              1)You were the one that was acting blind…
              “Now not even bringing up the issue of whether that is accurate (though that in and of itself could be hotly contested),”
              i gave you a solid link which was obviously in  front of you all the time…

              2)why the hell are you concentrating on only the funding part..Its only one of the reasons i mentioned..

              3) Most do not even know or care about that allotment!
              This comment shows how responsible you are to the nation..You dont care what Govt spend on you..

              4)”The correct analogy to that would not be the cliched and self-serving one
              you raised, but rather that of hating a child just because his parents
              give him good things. ”

              Look here brainless
              Parents(Govt) not only has a single child (IITs)..There are many brothers(so many other educational institutions)
              Having a fixed income(Educational budget) they(Govt) decides to spend it on single one(IITs) obviously resulting in a hatred from other brothers(other educational institutions)…Eventually this child(IITs) leave for US and brothers(other educational institutions) take care of parent(India)…

              i have written this as a kids story so that even people having a immature mentality can inderstand..
              If you understood this read here http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/article3851415.ece
              “I said that most of the money spent on education in India went to the
              institutes of higher education like the IITs and universities, ”

              PS:Indeed your English bad because,you found so many errors on my answer which is completely perfect  in automatic grammar check tool in the computer…Also you lack basic understanding what people say….

              • Karan Dhingra

                this is hilarious 

                • Shushman

                  Indeed it is. I say we enjoy the show! :D

              • Shushman

                So much for you not responding to this blog post again :P

                Why thank you for your kindness maam, but I, like many IITian students, am not sexually frustrated at all – another thing you probably just assumed, like most of your statements here. (As far as sexual tendencies go, posting from a male account seems to be quite telling on your behalf). And there is no such thing as an IITian ego, and even if there were, all I have refused to shed here is my rationality, unlike you maam.And yes you can dumb down your analogies, thereby twisting the facts and the analysis all you want, but even at that primal level, if a parent gives preferential attention to a child, and that leads to problems with the other children, the onus is on the parent to look to a solution. As for your US example, not only is it still assumed by you that the bulk of IITians leave the country, far more than other institutes (against which evidence has been shown by others here already), the very concept that just because they get more grants automatically obliges them more than others is an alarming anti-rational sentiment coming from the modern youth – and it reeks more of sour grapes and pettiness than anything else.

                Well it seems you really have managed to mess up your automatic grammar check tool also maam – might I suggest a good old grammar book for your reference? Come by Kharagpur sometime and I’d be glad to teach you! Or is it too demeaning on your part to take lessons in English from a lowly, uncommunicative IITian? Cheers! :)

                • Nehatiya

                  Thank you ..Since you at least read the answer once i will respond to you…

                  HERE IS THE MAIN POINT…I AM REPEATING IN EVERY ANSWER THAT YOU KEEP ON IGNORING…
                  —————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
                  We started of with reasons for IITian hatred…Hatred due to Govt funding is an ASSUMED reason…I AM not the one who started this phenomenon…So please spare me the judgement…I request you…
                  —————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
                  “like many IITian students, am not sexually frustrated at all ”

                  Its ok to be frustrated..If you dont have there is something wrong with you…Since you are from KGP why dont you have read at this http://www.scholarsavenue.org/kgp-sutra/
                  “An average kgp guy dates in negligible amounts. Which obviously gives way to sexual frustration.”

                  ” another thing you probably just assumed, like most of your statements here.”
                  i haven’t assumed anything here..I have given you credible links whenever you doubted me..(For ex above case)

                  “there is no such thing as an IITian ego, and even if there were, all I
                  have refused to shed here is my rationality, unlike you maam.”
                  Thank you..Please read ahead…

                  “And yes you can dumb down your analogies, thereby twisting the facts and the analysis all you want”
                  If you are referring to Parent children model i just included the OTHER EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS and FIXED EDUCATIONAL BUDGET you missed out..

                  “but even at that primal level, if a parent gives preferential attention
                  to a child, and that leads to problems with the other children, the onus
                  is on the parent to look to a solution.”
                  Yes indeed onus is on the parent..But what we are seeing is a hatred developing against child(IIT) even though he is innocent… I am not accusing any IITians for this hatred…Hope you get me …

                  “As for your US example, not only is it still assumed by you that the
                  bulk of IITians leave the country, far more than other institutes
                  (against which evidence has been shown by others here already)”
                  i didnt see the evidence..can you point me the link..I have written so many links for you..can you return me the favor…

                  “the very concept that just because they get more grants automatically
                  obliges them more than others is an alarming anti-rational sentiment
                  coming from the modern youth – ”
                  Its not only because of the more grants…There are several other reasons(mostly assumptions)…
                  (1)Most of the IITians just leave the country (2)IITian pay package is huge..
                  (3)Most of the IITians abandon engineering  (4)Most IITians who stay here dont work for the nation…
                  You can give your own counter arguments..There is no links to prove any of this…

                  “and it reeks more of sour grapes and pettiness than anything else.”
                  NO absolutely NO…Like the parent /child model other children deserves some attention..The youth of other institutions also paid taxes and most of them work for the nation.In fact they being the major chunk they are paying your expenses..Just because you cracked JEE doesn’t entitle you to reap majority of the benefits… Combined with this we have the above assumptions fueling the hatred…
                  EVEN YOU PEOPLE RANT ABOUT INTERNET/MESS FOOD SO WHY CANT THEY….?
                  That is what Retired Supreme court Judge mentions…They also deserve a part of it…
                  Its normal human behavior rather than sour grapes…

                  “Well it seems you really have managed to mess up your automatic grammar
                  check tool also maam – might I suggest a good old grammar book for your
                  reference?”
                  I usually write fast without much worries about grammar or spelling..Also i do not edit my comments later..So its not perfect but it can convey the message…And regarding your offer No…

                  “Come by Kharagpur sometime and I’d be glad to teach you! Or is it too
                  demeaning on your part to take lessons in English from a lowly,
                  uncommunicative IITian?”
                  Again NO..Not because i hate to take lessons from you but the frustration commonly found in males at IIT Kgp is not there in you…

                  Hope you enjoyed the show..

                  • Shushman

                    Gosh that was long. If I did not know better I would suspect you enjoy this little exchange. :P

                    Okay okay let’s all just calm down a little bit. It’s just a blog post. Nothing to go to war over with the caps lock and all. And yes I admit I was a little too lazy to provide links for every single thing I was mentioning (a guy from Kanpur explained how only 10% of his batch had permanently settled in the US…I was too lazy to find the comment :P) – but that does not take anything away from the reality and the logic of it as I know certain things to be true. I am not so worried about proving it to anybody else as I am about establishing it, but I do appreciate your effort in searching for references to what you are saying.
                    I think finally we both agreed on the point that the blame for the skewed system does not lie squarely so much on the students of IIT – that there are other stakeholders here who can do something about it. And while you may not have been directly accusing IITians for this, the vast majority of anti-IIT comments here, as well as the interview, have been doing just that. And hatred against something or someone for reasons not entirely attributable to them is NOT justified at all. That is pretty much the essence of what I was saying. Yes, taxes do go to pay for the facilities in IIT but that was a policy decision made by the Govt. a long time ago when they wanted to establish a set of institutes for excellence which required disproportionate funding. And yes, if you ever come to IIT KGP you will see how many people there have aspirations to bring this nation forward (including myself) and how generally it is bureaucratic inertia and red tape that prevents many of them from doing so.And as for the grammar bashing, well it was in the heat of the moment. Apologies for that. Your message has of course been conveyed and understood. And I think that is as peaceful a note as any to end this on. Good day! :)

                  • flop show

                    this is amazingly humourous at the same time witty….better leave “Big Bang Theory”…to read this comments..
                    Time to go ONE On ONE

                  • Abhi

                    If  “Hatred due to Govt funding is an ASSUMED reason” then you must be pretty busy writing long posts as Indian budget is about 15 lakh crore this year.

                    (1)Most of the IITians just leave the country…. In return you get a job vacancy here..for our fellow countrymen.It’s good right?
                    (2)IITian pay package is huge…. and why is that a problem?Jealousy?
                    3)Most of the IITians abandon engineering …you cant talk about ‘engineering’ and ‘working for the nation,in the nation’ at the same time… i hope you dont ask for a reason.
                    (4)Most IITians who stay here dont work for the nation… pls let us all know your expectations here.

                    If any of the above makes sense to you, i hope you don’t ask for any ‘credible’ link.

                    Suppose the govt. decides to spend 20 lakhs on you (whether you want it or not) in a way which may or may not be helpful to you directly..what would you do for the country,if any? Consider your point (4) while replying.

            • Neha Tiya

              Still if you are not convinced(please read the other answer) here are a few links where people vent out their anger..
              i had to quickly come up with this…

              http://www.studyfreak.com/gdHome.php?gd=1
              http://www.indianexpress.com/comments/govt-funds-80–iit-expenses-students-pay-back-a-fraction/849044/

              PS:You are the really the stupid IITian Nishant was referring..I will not respond to this blog again..i have better things to do than attending IITians ego problems…

        • Nehatiya

          Please have a look at this newspaper article…written by retired Supreme Court Judge…

          http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/article3851415.ece

          The 20L spend on IITians is a big deal for a normal man dude and as a result other educational institutions suffer…

           

          • Asheesh Agrawal

            I read the article only because it was written by retired Supreme Court Judge; I am disappointed. He has addressed four issues : 

            1) Lack of good primary and middle schools (with which I can’ not agree more). Still not related to IITs.

            2) Brain Drain : He has made the point that most of the IITians leave country which is baseless. Nishant has already countered this. Just to give you some *actual* numbers, from my batch of 250 people at IIT Kanpur who would be passing out in July 2013, less than 25 (<10%) will leave for foreign countries; rest will work in India. Actually, most of my batch-mates *want* to work in India. And this is the general trend in IITs.

            3) Standard of masses : He has cited problems like massive unemployment, skyrocketing prices, huge problems of health care, housing, etc. How's this related to issue being discussed here? How do you expect engineers to solve these problems. Why not blame doctors instead since government medical schools are also heavily subsidized.  [Don't tell me Indian doctors don't work in USA, UK etc; not that it's even the point]

            4) Lack of research : Baseless again since IITs are famous for their undergraduate education.  Undergraduate education is an education level taken in order to gain one's first tertiary degree [Wikipedia]. IITs are institutes of TECHNOLOGY whereas noble prize is awarded for outstanding contributions in Physics, Chemistry, Literature, Peace, Physiology or Medicine, and Economic Sciences[Wikipedia]. You get the point. Also, many IITians go for post graduate studies (read research) to institutes like MIT, Stanford and Princeton and make significant contribution to their respective fields which I can't expect a layman person like retired Supreme Court Judge to be aware of.

            • Nehatiya

               i was mainly responding to Shushman questioning my claim of huge funding on IITs…i have written another answer that mentions 20L spend on each IITian…I am interested only on the point how other educational institution including Govt Engineering colleges suffer(neglected) due to this funding and can create an negative feeling towards IITs and IITians…

              1)IITs(mainly IITians) take away major part of educational budget.
              “I said that most of the money spent on education in India went to the
              institutes of higher education like the IITs and universities..”

              2)Agreed ..i Have no idea…If there is brain drain its bad…Because Crores go to waste..

              3)As told i am not interested ..But most of the Doctors do work in Govt Hospitals etc…But what about IITians….How many work in Govt???

              4)No i dont get the point…This is a lame excuse given by many IITians…

              IITs also have science departments…Also almost all branches like electronics,electrical,chemical,material science are closely related to basic science branches..One doesnt have to directly do research in Physics to get Nobel in Physics..
              Why dont you have a look at this  http://www.electro.patent-invent.com/electricity/nobelwinners.html

              IITs are institutes of TECHNOLOGY: Israel Institute of TECHNOLOGY
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technion_%E2%80%93_Israel_Institute_of_Technology
              which is ranked 200-250(similar to IITs) have 3 Nobel Laureates.

              As per your point 2 only less than 10% leave for US..If you remove those one going for overseas jobs the number is negligible..

              While you could have mentioned about Govt policies or low research funding it could have been acceptable…

  • Shushman

    I am just a green-horned sophomore from KGP but does this article not disprove most, if not all of the gross generalisations made by the generally misinformed and presumably scornful people who pass such comments?
    Just a thought…maybe instead of removing the IITs we should just dispose of the word IITian – that seems to be the major problem that bugs many of the people! They don’t have a problem with the institution as such (most don’t know enough about it to form a credible opinion), they just have a problem with a tag they feel is a symbol of self-imposed elitism, when it is just an adjective derived from a noun. :P

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Supriyo-Roy/1188788983 Supriyo Roy

      Couldn’t agree more !

  • http://www.facebook.com/jangir.shubham4 Shubham Jangir

    No cultural Activity ? didn’t they heard about MOOD INDIGO ? the biggest college cultural festival of Asia.
    All activities are held in IITs like other colleges.
    Why do people think so negative about IITians ? Are we forced to study only  and why ?
    And other negative thought that Getting into IITs is success in its own. Its not true at all. Success depends upon your abilities not on your college.
    Also
    “All Successful Persons are not IITians and All IITians are not successful.”
    Thats it.

  • http://profiles.google.com/das.rambo anurag das

    I am from a private engineering college in west Bengal,My parents  wanted me to study in IIT ,so they sent me to fiitjee  to take training,gradually the tiring curriculum and the long hours got the better of me and I failed to make into the IITs although i got 92 % marks in my CBSE exams. So initially I registered a hate for the IITs thinking why couldn’t I get through ,all my other fiitjee mates with worse board results got in IITs ,I failed to make an impact in any of the competitive exams, I accepted the fact that my brain is not capable of competitive exams… I realized it is not about success or fat paychecks but the frustration of not getting into IITs makes you hate the IITs..it has been 2 years since I passed out from school,I am happy now with my life and is working hard to achieve something in life,maybe I will get through GATE,maybe not..but yes getting into IITs will always be one of my dreams.. IITs should continue to make India proud :)

    • Nitish

      Dear Anurag, you will make it for sure. My best wishes for you. Your reply truly tells what worthy education have you got even be it from other college. Believe me, even students from IIT are not capable of observing good education even if they are provided. People like you who craves for perfection makes the journey great. Good people always shine irrespective where they are. They believe in doing even small things with perfection. And thats what really counts.

    • Sandeep Mathias

      Hi,
      Even though I did not get into IIT in 2006, the preparation for the same helped me get in to NITK Surathkal, and while that is a farcry from IIT, it is still a reasonably good college (although, it could be better). I didn’t fret much, but I was a little upset when I did not get a JEE rank. At the time, I was more happier by the fact that I got into a reasonably good college. In 2010, I wrote GATE and even though I got a score, I was unable to enter any IIT. At the same time, I also applied to IIIT Bangalore, and got a Masters there. I worked for about a year, and then applied for a PhD in IIT Bombay. Finally, in 2013 – seven years after I first attempted to get in – I was selected for a PhD in Computer Science at IIT Bombay. So dreams do come true, but you must work for them to happen.

  • sani

    WTF?..my bro is also an iitian and the level of iit is very high , if you are saying they are not good in other stuffs then you must watch how they celebrate diwali? how they organise tech fest ? how they play other instruments,
    and before commenting on their research part , you must know that it is the fault of our govt. that they are unable to utilise their best engineers , who are praised in US parliament but our own government didn’t respond to all uphold their status ,
    and now if you are saying govt. is providing amenities to only iitians than it is not true indeed because they increased their fees also …and if these students are selected than they must have right to showcase their attitude…..so pls go and first check before commenting because of some jealous……

  • Bobby2222

    The debate was a well orchestrated bullying over the poor IITan. It has got no rationality. I am not an IIT an but I have many IITans along with me in the University. The Intelligence Quotient they have and the ability to interpret deadlock situations are a direct manifestation of what they are. Infact, I have to work very hard to equal them. I don’t think they are to be held responsible for any fat pay packages they are getting. After all, we are not communists.. When students, after graduating from IIMs get involved in ‘start ups’ like hotel business and menial jobs, why do we need to spew venom over him..After all , Albert Einstein’s research has been appreciated  by  Princeton which never in its history was in Germany..

  • Jindal Tanvi

    You just gave words to my thoughts! 

  • Non IITian

    I am sorry i read all the comments ..As told by Nishant there are smart,humble and stupid IITians ..similarly there are stupid people..I dont understand why IITians have to make it a big deal about gibberish spoken by two stupid people(Common its not even a important show)…why do you have to argue against what these good for nothing people mentioned in a lame show..??Why do you even care ??How many people even watch this show…??
    If you really want to prove about yourself why dont you write a blog against prominent persons like Narayana Murthy or B Muthuraman who have bashed at IITs and are themselves IITians…..

    You are no better than the people who conducted the show..They wanted TRP you want sympathy…
    PS:i am fed up of AKS Primality test..Is there anything else??

  • NON IIT

    Really sad to see this post…

    MTV Roadies is crap reality show occurring for almost a decade.lacks of people watch it..i watched all seasons..There are claims like they are toughest judges in the country,The selection is tougher than SSB(selection to Army)…But that doesnt mean i start a blog post and refute each and every claim these morons make…Because neither the judges nor contestants are worth it..People watch it,laugh and forget…
    Do you find any IIM graduate fighting against IIPMs claim(dare to think beyond IIMs)…
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institute_of_Planning_and_Management_advertising_and_blogging_controversy

    The purpose of the interview was to provide entertainment..Every body to acquainted with  IITs know its bullshit..People who dont know will not care..They just laugh at the fight and forget it…How many people(other than IITians) even saw it….
    Nobody makes a big deal out of them apart from a few egoistic IITians..

    I am seeing the Author Nishant is a highly qualified person and did not expect such behavior from him…You have a respected position in this country,dont spoil it…This is the same reason for stereotyping(if any) you…The post is craving for attention…

    I find Narayana Murthys controversial talk at PAN IIT more interesting and convincing than this so called interview…

    So if any IITians are worried about hatred,falling standard and shutting down of IITs please write a blog post regarding the same…

    • Karan Dhingra

      Err, MTV Roadies is broadcast on an entertainment channel, not a news channel. It does not matter what the general populace thinks about Roadies because it’s just an entertainment show. And the claims that it is harder to get selected for it than it is for the Army, probably perpetuated by MTV itself, are ridiculous enough to not be taken seriously. This, on the other hand, is being broadcasted by one of the premier English news channels in India. People respect NDTV and take it seriously. Such misinformation spread through such credible (in the public’s eye) sources about educational institutions (not entertainment shows) is defamation. MTV is not defaming the Army, in contrast this show did defame IITs and IIT alumni under the guise of a ‘debate’. That is why this blog post is warranted. 

      • NON IIT

        Regarding Roadies Part which you mainly concentrated..

        “Err It does not matter what general populace thinks about roadies”..It does because see how hundreds youths are wasting their time with it…Some even waste 2-3 years just for becoming a roadie..Compared to that how does this lame interview(90% seen by IITians)even affect a general populace?

        The claims od roadies are not refuted because i expect my fellow Indians to be smart to know this(leaving the few odd candidates)…i expect the same courtesy from you..I am not dumb to not know about India’s Premier Institutes…

        The IIPM claim is printed on majority of national news paper and promoted by Sharukh Khan himself.”dare to think beyond IIMs”..Do you find any IIM graduate crying about this??? Because they dont have to..And if you believe general populace to be brainwashed by this stupid interview(Which even is not main part of NDTV) and defamed IITs and IIT alumni then there is something seriously wrong with IITs…

        If defaming IITs was the problem you better write a blog about Narayana Murthy’s comment because i find it more convincing…

        Only reason i find this blog to promoted is IITians ego..That some one kicked an IITians *** and your ego is hurt…Just read the comments written here…What are you expecting from me a sympathy or a boost about JEE….????

        • Siddharth Bhattacharya

           Hi Non IIT,

                               An IITians ass was not kicked by a non-IITian. (I am that IITian on the show to clarify). I posted on it myself on Quora angry by the way Indian media works, and not necessarily that I was taken down by someone else. (I don’t believe anyways I was taken down, if the opponent was really an expert with credible arguments it would have been a real ass-kicked where I needed to justify my position, this guy with wasteful and logically faulty arguments eased up the work). Saying he kicked my ass after this can either be a sheer disdain of logic or an obstinacy of wanting to see IITs defeated. I didn’t kick his ass, he didn’t kick mine. Both argued. My weakness was less fluent English than his. His was apart from few logically valid statements, others were repetition of themselves or inconsistent with the question asked.

                              Why this has been given more importance than Roadies or IIPMs? The examples mentioned are commercial advertisements for marketing purposes. If a college X tomorrow says “The best engineering college in India” (some magazines already report VIT above IITs in some surveys) in their manifesto, who would give a shit? Any third-grade non functioning product can advertise itself as the best in the sector. The problem arises when a single member of the set is targeted for criticism. So if IIPM ad said ‘Time to think beyond the hopeless IIMs’ it would have fueled IIM people to not just refute, but ask for alimony for damages to reputation. Same when let’s say a country markets itself as ‘Better than India’ no one cares. However when people from that country call Indians as unreliable thiefs, Indians rise up to it. That’s the sort of comparison you’re making. We who are proud to have studied at IIT get angered at defamatory accusations (especially by those who don’t have enough idea on the internal scenario) just like Indians who are proud to be Indians respond to accusations. There are blog posts about Narayan Murthy’s accussation as well, but his criticism holds more weight having been an insider and someone who has opened a huge country and set a precedent for ‘serving the nation’.

          PS. I am more proud to belong to IIT than India. Being born in India was not a choice, joining IIT was a choice. I am proud of my choices and not those where I had no claim in deciding the outcome.

          • NON IIT

            Hi Siddarth
            Thank you for the extensive answer..I did read your quora post and it is well written.”have been a real ass-kicked where I needed to justify my position”.Arent IITians(not you) justifying themselves here? Thats all he wanted.You people are giving unnecessary attention and indirectly promoting it…Now we can expect more shows like this..Thanks to you…

            I am more proud to belong to IIT than India.
            This is really disgusting..Do you mean to say IITs are not part of india or they have a separate culture…You reap all the benefits and now you cant accept little bit of negativity..i would really love to know what made you say this…

            • Siddharth Bhattacharya

              Thanks for the response (without going into rants). I have stated there I don’t need to justify my position for it wasn’t a debate as per me, and I wasn’t letting anyone down. The intention of the post is simply to expose how media works. And I did it.

              See, he (law guy) wanted nothing. He was a pawn as well in a larger scheme of things. The news channel needed to put forth an opinion, which it did through him. He got the desired footage (through his networks and whatever), I came to TV on a last moment call. Apart from the negativity it has brought me, overall it got me more publicity. Also this interview doesn’t take my job offer of which I am glad.

              Sounds like a win-win. Other than if we laid it to rest, another rigged presentation by the media would be seen as objective by the masses. Having been a part of media now, all I can do is if I have discovered the surface of how things work in media I can expose it.

              Also I explained you well enough why IITians are offended. It’s not like IITs are being ignored, someone else claims to be better etc etc. It’s because a dig is being taken at them without knowing better of it. Indians don’t let rest a dig on Indians, any community doesn’t lay to rest if it’s being done on a big level and same is  the case with IITians. If it means indirectly promoting it, it’s ok- the situation needs discussion.

              Regarding the patriotism part:
              IITs are a subset of India. Liking a subset doesn’t mean I like the set. On the contrary, liking a set means I like all its subsets. Therefore like India => like IITs while like IITs =/=> like India. Moreover if you want to know my personal opinions on why I am not patriotic enough: http://www.quora.com/India/What-does-India-do-wrong/answer/Siddharth-Bhattacharya; here is one. I would also write soon on how patriotism is an overhyped notion, which we shouldn’t invoke every now and then. Before you lecture me on India’s awesomeness, it would be good if you go through my India answers on Quora- where I have praised India, wrote too much on Indian history. However I don’t subscribe to blind patriotism. I love the Indian culture, doesn’t mean I have to defend it everytime and invoke patriotism into every argument.

              Yes, IITs have a different culture. Every city, every district, every college has a seperate culture. However it’s not IIT’s culture I am proud of. Remember ‘pride’ is a strong word. I am glad to belong to IITs as well as to India. However pride can be only on things we had a say. I can be proud of my decision (or my Dad’s) to have grown me up in the specific city because there was a choice factor involved. Similarly I am proud to have taken the right decision in joining IITs. However what I can’t be proud of is the fact that I am born in India. Being born in a specific country is not something we have much choice in. We can be glad in hindsight, we lived in this country but pride is not the word:
              http://www.quora.com/India/What-is-the-one-thing-that-makes-you-feel-proud-to-be-an-Indian.

              • Siddharth Bhattacharya

                 Also whatever I wrote regarding patriotism in my last reply (which anyways was a digression from the original topic) are in no ways representative of what other IITians believe. In fact I maybe criticized by many at IITs for saying that.

              • Woolor Woolor

                Brother… I have nothing relate to IIT, but as Indian I am taking proud that we have IITs/IIMs world class level institute… I don’t know what people have talked about.  I am a tax payer.. Many Indian are paying tax too. Due to this tax IITs are running,, Now  corruption, issues are hurting us as our tax money is wasted though it is paid due to our responsibility. But what make us happy that at-least some of our money is used in education, infrastructure.etc. Now if someone who is studying in institutions those are running by his nations’  people money says that he is not pround of his nation as much as his institution. Man!! it hurt what ever your inclination…   

                • Siddharth Bhattacharya

                  Being an outsider, you have the privilege of being the ‘opposition party’ and ranting. Had I been in another college, I would have said “I am proud to go to X more than proud to be an Indian”. Since X= IIT for me, I inserted it there. It seems stupid to me, how tax money is inserted into everything out here. Can we have a logical discussion without it?

                  I have justified how pride in nation (any nation) is a logically flawed concept according to me, and being the beneficiary of taxes doesn’t me change my logic.

            • utkarsh

               hi…
              I am an IITian and I want to say a single thing that NON- IITian people have not ability to be an IITian and so, they do some nuisance  by saying that Non- IITian are also better but the one thing that whole world knows that “WE ARE THE BEST PEOPLE” in the world…

              • Vipul Mehra

                It would have been great, if you side by side paid attention to proper English and sentence framing. I am sure you are an IITIAN.

          • GUEST

            MR siddharth iitian {not INDIAN},
            Look mister iipm has always mention that they are better then iim in global exposure and not in academics or in paychecks.and VIT has always mention that they have a better infrastructure then iits so whats the big mistake in it .if vit has better infrastructures they willl about it there’s nothing wrong in it.look at IIMS they never complained about IIPM they just dont care about it as they know they are better but look at you ….you started a huge controversy about it which was completely unneccessary. It was only about EGO and nothing else.
                                                And know coming to the fact that u are proud to be an iitian rather then an INDIAN u should think that if u have born anywhere else in the world who the hell would give you such a good education at such a less fee and more over stipends,scholarships,world class faculties,best accomodations etc.SO next time ever before you comment such statements think twice you would be nothing if you wern’t born in INDIA mr. perfect choice iitian…..

            • ROHIT CHAUHAN

               HELLO MR GUEST,
                    It seems nobody knows about IIPM and VIT better than you.As far as better infrastructures at VIT is concerned,i would really like to know more from you about it  because i think nobody can  tell me this thing better than you not even the VIT itself. And if i find enough logic in your explanation  i would leave the IIT immediately to join it , for who will not like to study in a  college that has better infrastructures than the one you  are currently in.
                    you said it just about EGO and nothing else.By saying so you are giving an impression that you are justifying what these people say about iitians and all that.You said we pay attention to it uselessly.But the fact is that we IITIANS really do not care about all such nonsense that people say in regard to IITS.We feel really cheap to comment on such pointless things.It’s insult of our own if we do so.And  we happens to speak about these ,then it is just to clarify the misunderstandings the people like  you have.
                      
                      Let me know you this better.Those dogs who bark that iitians are not doing this ,iitians do not deserve such facilities ,such higher packages,they do nothing except wasting country’s resources etc are actually those who are jealous of what the iitians have.They simply can’t tolerate to see iitians enjoying respect worldwide,earning higher salaries ,gaining so much attention ,having acquired higher posts in companies and places they work.
                        If a handful of beasts start crying foul in this way, the elephant does not changes it’s course.It continues to walk  on the way it is.The same is with iitians.
                                    
                    We really do not care  what is being said about us.We will continue to rock the world through our talents ,our dedications, hard working and never give up attitude and our intelligence, regardless of what this world think about us.

  • http://www.facebook.com/adityagupta218 Aditya Gupta

    I understand the anger, having spend a few furious nights myself at the sheer audacity of the people behind the show.

    I would agree with almost all the rebuttals posted above, however in my opinion the first and foremost question that needs to be answered is that who is this insolent 2nd year undergrad, allowed to question the importance, significance and contributions of an Institution like the Indian Institute of Technology, alma matter to people like D. Subbarao, Narayan Murthy, Nandan Nilekani, Arvind Kejriwal, Rajat Gupta, Manindra Agarwal, Rajeev Motwani, Arun Sarin, Manohar Parrikar and hundreds of such others.

    Till then, even answering his questions gives him undue credit, which he does not deserve by any means.

    • Non IIT

      Its IITians like you who are making this law guy a hero by giving him unwanted attention…:

  • Susmitasingh09

    The law guy or whoever says such things about IITs is either trying to gain cheap publicity or is jealous of IITians because he/she himself/herself is not competent enough to get into one.. kids who get into IITs on their own will do have a life, with sports, romance and all like normal teenagers.. it is their high IQ levels and love for studies that sets them apart from students of other colleges.. who says studying is torture? they love studying and solving complex problems just the way we love watching TV and playing games.. as far as research is concerned, go and have a look at the M.Tech and PhD students.. some B.Tech students are also involved in highly innovative research work.. for fat pay cheques, I would like to ask these people that if they are offered that job, will they refuse it?? So, my dear IITian countrymen and those aspiring to get into one, don’t pay heed to these and carry on, wish you super-successful lives!

  • Sriram Sridharan

    Really nice post man. Don’t know if someone told you, but this post has become really popular back here in IIT Kharagpur. I have had atleast 4 different guys pop into my room and ask me to read this.

  • Shyam Panjwani

    Nice attempt to put voice of frustrated junta, who couldn’t make into iits.
    I am not saying all non-iitians are worthless. even some of the iitians don’t deserve respect, but let me tell you iitians contribute in progress of the country in many ways. In most of the big companies,,, whether it’s PSU or any private firm like infosys, IBM etc, there are many iitians who are holding very imp. posts and in this way they are contributing( obviously they are getting huge salaries for this!!!)
    If you talk about the intelligence, visit any foreign university, you will find many Indian ( mostly iitians) professors and graduate student doing wonders in their field.Yes in IITs we don’t have world class research facilities, that’s why we don’t produce much in terms of patents etc, but blaming iitians for this is not right.These things will come with time.
    There is lot of scope of improvement but you can’t compare iitians to private engg. clg students.
    I want to add… I am iitian and currently PHD student in US, and I came here to get good exposure and pay back something to my country by utilizing my knowledge to develop new technologies for India.

    • Siddharth Tyagi

      How do they exactly contribute to country success ? By corruption? I mean the higher the post you are appointed to the higher sum of money you digest. and befor you point out me that I didn’t make into IIT I should tell you I’m International Medical Graduate [IMG]. so not really in that field.
      ————————————————————————————————————————
      “I think Siddharth (the guy with the job) did a good job at tackling this question, by stating that it is the undergraduate program that gets hype at IITs, which doesn’t necessarily imply research. We have the IISERs, ISIs, IMSc and IISc which are more of research institutes.”

      Really other institutions? Why Mister? when IITs are getting 10-20 times the funding other institutions are getting why are they wasting it. Are they less than MIT? Or Are the more Than MIT in digesting Money? Why aren’t they able to utilise it research on something. why they are still STUCK in 70′s and 80′s.

      ————————————————————————————————————————

      YOU KNOW THESE VILLAGE PEOPLE ASK THERE ROBOTS TO STUDY LIKE DOGS NOT TO BECOME SOME EMINENT PERSON OR HELP IN DEVELOPING COUNTRY BUT ONLY AND ONLY FOR EARNING MONEY BY AND WAY THEY CAN. ONCE THE SET ON SOME HIGH POST THEY START CHEATING THEIR OWN COUNTRY. THEY ARE THE REAL PROBLEM. ESPECIALLY BIHARI AND EAST-UP.

      I do have some bad experiences with teachers and friends and thus decided to go abroad where atleast people love and respect their country.

  • Shikhar Shrivastav

    Echoes the sentiments of every IITian ! :) I wish other people were sane enough to understand this.

  • Rat

    I urge all former, current IITians to master indoor plumbing before attempting to learn technology. You C*&T M&^%F*&^S. You F*&^NG paint this EDISON/EINSTEIN picture of yourselves but cannot fit a zero watt bulb. You M*&^^&S

    • mewly IITian

      Fitting a bulb is something you are trained to do, not learn to do. Even a monkey can do it. Trained properly (about at most an hour), most people should be able to do it blindfolded. We don’t ask people to give us this ‘EDISON/EINSTEIN picture of’ ourselves. But since people do, we accept it and move on. Which is what I suggest you do.

  • Vipul Mehra

    BroI was just on a googling spree

    and landed over to your page. The heading

    was tempting, so I decided to read.

    On a serious note, I wasted my 10 minutes

    of life and now I shall be wasting another

    10 minutes by writing this comment.

    But you go on and read my comment, as this

    will enlighten you with the truth and facts.

    First of all, whats with your goddamn ego?

    Anyway, I should come to the point, and yes

    I don’t second you at all at any point.

    I will start with some really straight

    forward questions:

    1) How many IITIANS are nobel prize winners?

    2) How many IITIANS are sports person/athletes

    at even national level? Leave the global

    scenerio.

    3) How many IITIANS are into acting/music

    at global level? for example Bollywood/

    hollywood alike? Don’t ramble up with your

    idiotic respone like “there are many amateur

    musicians and all that shit”.

    4) How many IITIANS are Steve jobs, Bill gates,

    Mark Zuckerberg?

    5) Why the hell they get FATTY pay checks?

    Questions and Answers session over :)

    Dude, I am not against any IITIAN or neither I am in doubt

    about their abilities. But as far as over all personality

    is concerned, in my OPIONION they are “fucking IDIOTS”.

    These people cannot even stand straight in front of chicks are

    desperate and lifeless as hell.

    As for the most of their puberty when most of the kids

    spend time outdoors they spend time with books learning

    nothing about life.

    And when they get into the college, they spend time with

    porn :) cause, in reality they were too stupid to even get

    a girl to talk to them.

    Most of them are skinny ass nerds, who when plug in their

    earphones playing back a “Metal Song”, start to think

    themselves as MATRIX (The movie one).

    And the very reason they spend time with books and by all

    means want to crack IIT is not because that will get them

    exposure. It is because they are not good at anything else

    rather than cramming.

    Oh! Yes, not to forget, “Circus mai agar sher (lion) ko

    jabardasti karengay to sher (lion) bhi naachega” the

    jungle king!”, you are not lions though, that analogy

    wouldnt be right!

    You are simply human beings, who were deluded all their lives

    to think that by getting into a brand name your life will

    be heavenly sort of stuff. You will get girls, you will get

    WAH WAH from the people and will enjoy a settled life.

    By doing anything else, which you guys cannot obviously do,

    your life will not be as good as being an IITIAN will be.

    To me IIT in whole is a MAFIA kind of thing.

    Because of IIT’s little students who are to hit puberty, rather than enjoying

    outdoor/nature are sent by their parents in coaching institutes, whereby

    paying huge fees in lacs.

    Once you guys graduate, you goto universities in the US, again

    money drain. I would not say BRAIN DRAIN, cause really you guys

    dont have that much.

    So it is like mafia! Thanks to Indian government, for making

    stupid people like you pseudo-geniuses. And making private

    coaching institutions and universities in the US rich!

    And in practical situations an engineer from IIT is as good

    as an engineer from any given college. Provided he is being

    scaled at equal level, given equal opportunities and pat on the

    back, just like IITIANS in INDIA get for no fucking reason.

    You have also interacted with students of other colleges?

    And you have seen their projects? The projects carried out

    by IITIANS are far better?

    Must be a memorable experience!! hahaha

    Dude, how do you decide how good/bad a project is? Just because

    you guys made a primality (AKS Primality) test, which no one

    uses (How many times have you used?) this test, with a lab

    where gazillion of dollars are spent, for the use of stupid

    people like you! Or a satellite which no one cares about!

    Did any of the above WONDER projects, in any way helped a

    common man out? A simple search engine like google, though a

    simple project helps a common man. A simple facebook helps

    in connecting you to gazillion of people worldwide.

    And just like you I have interacted with many people from

    IITs! They are stupid as hell, believe me.

    Whats the use of your Satellite, which is never ever gonna

    go in space? Or whats the use of your IDIOTIC Primality test?

    Which a common man is too scared to even look at???

    What are you guys doing for a COMMON MAN??? Really?

    You say that we shouldnt expect saintly behaviour from you guys?

    And on the contrary you say “Come into an iit and see the facilities

    and exposure we guys are provided with”.

    For what reason are you guys provided with exposure and facilities

    by the Indian government? To serve as labors in the USA??

    Obviously, if you are given importance for no reason, you are

    provided with best of facilities for just 90k/year you should

    work for country and towards the development of it.

    Not to just gulp in the fatty pay checks. Our government

    by spending money on idiot people like you ensures that there

    are enough trained human resource (Ghadhas or khacchars) who

    are when called will be able to serve the nation at the time

    of crisis and nothing else.

    You say give India the resources in terms of money and infrastructure

    and a few dedicated people at the helm of affairs and you will

    see how talented students in IITs are?

    I cannot really grok out, how the hell are you guys even

    at the smarter side??? People who cannot create sources, people

    who need money and dedicated people at the helm of affairs

    to show their talent? That is not talent. That is rather

    chootiyapanti.

    What resources you want? You are in IIT, almost all the campuses

    are in the lines of 500 acres, infact IIT kharagpur is 2100 acres

    comparing it to MIT in the US which is just 168 acres. What resources

    do you want??? You yourself said, you guys get all the exposure,

    brilliant peer group and professors make a lot good work accessible

    to students! Then why the hell you need extra resources to

    show how talented you are?????

    Because, you guys are not all talented. FUCKING IDIOTS you are :)

    You can only work in set environments, just like you cleared

    your entrance examination by doing the same type of set questions

    on a set pattern. You guys are like computers, speedy in calculations,

    solve problems quickly if feeded with an algorithm to do so, you can

    be programmed and tuned easily and with an IQ that is zero. And if you think aptitude test or

    idiotic entrance exam really tests your IQ, then you are only

    proving my above statement right about you guys having a ZERO

    IQ. Ohkay, not proving, actually verifying. Hahaha

    Anyway, I think at this point I will writing, but to let you know

    i have much more to say.

    By the way, why the hell you idiots get fatty pay checks????

    • max

      dude just visit any IIT. atlk to any of its students… ask these questions , you will get your answers!!

  • rahul sharma

    iitians are just nerdy guys who study all d time and waste their entire enjoyment and fuck up dier life

  • rahul

    ” artist is not everywhere (iitian) but artist can b born from anywhere”
    Being an iitian isn’t a big thing the real thing in life is the real value of oneself.
    The only thing I have to say is that it isn’t about the life of a lac of iitians but the lacs n lacs of students that aren’t. ..
    People don’t give the iitian a chance to make other feel inferior, bcuz they aren’t real winner. .. real winner are those who live for others benefit n nessity despite immense hardships. ..
    Living with a tag n fat pay check isn’t worthy until one is happy …
    Being an non iitian doesn’t mean that you have lower iq bcuz no iitian has the power to judge. . Remember everyone is different n the creator has made us with perfection. ..
    So all arrogant iitian I am proud to say we were unable to become one bcuz it is the character of us that makes us much more valuable …
    If u aren’t convinced ther r hundreds of living examples of successful people
    Soo never underestimate one person bcuz once he reaches the top u will only curse urself
    ” it is not the money or the fame that is important but the character that is within”

  • girl with a game

    What you have written is quite true. The IITians who manage to grab a job with a fat paycheck must have something about them. Not all of the IITians earn top money. Not all of the non IITians are stuck with a middle class lifestyle.

    I don’t think IIT’S are a good educational institution. They are like your typical Indian colleges, mug up, spit, mug up, spit. The problem that many seem to have is that IITs haven’t done anything significant in research despite the fact that they are the few thousand students to get into IITs amongst the lakhs of students who attempt the IIT exam. And that is true. But I don’t think the IITs or the IITians are to be blamed for it. And another funny thing that I’ve found is that many IITians tend to do MBA, from IIM’s…ahaha.. I mean seriously dude whatever is the connection between management and core engineering. That also might speak about their love for engineering, since they all want to escape from it. Our education system is in a way that encourages “ratta marna” and there is no real learning, practical learning. The problem is with the way our exam systems are designed. I mean seriously, they need you to attemtp physics, chemistry, math all of these subjects to get into computer science branch whereas there is no physics or chemistry involved in Computer science. Neither is there any chemistry in electrical and electronics engineering branches. Which means that even if a person has aptitude for computer science, he might not get into computer science degree because he isn’t that good at phy and chem. Our education systems doesn’t try to identify our skills, to let us learn deeply about a subject. All that matters is your overall percentage.

    And of course one thing i forgot to mention is that another problem that people have with IIT is that its entrance exam kills learning and encouages rote learning. IITians start IIT coaching as early as 8th class. Living in south India, I have seen this way of learning in schools.

    The general opinion about IITs might have been formed from the Chetan Bhagat’s book- “five point someone”, where he clearly wrote in detail about the hectic class schedule and loads of homeworks and assignments given to students which leave no time for personal development or hobbies or things like research. What I believe is that IIT in itself is not a great institution, but what makes it better than other Indian colleges is that the best of children study there. I know I studied from a local engineering college but the topper in our class was reallly brilliant. She can understand things so easily. I know a few of our lecturers were very good and made me love electrical engineering. Anyway, I think if IITs doesn’t show any promising results, it’s really the problem with schools and the exam system that should be dealt with. I’m glad that nowadays, the startup IT companies especially, are more And if IITians want to move to other countries, we should welcome that because comeon, we are over a billion people living in cramped places. It would be great if atleast a quarter of us moved out of India. Imagine, buses with place to sit or even stand, space on roads to drive a little faster, lower real estate prices so that it will be more affordable.. immigration is wonderful

    • http://www.nishanttotla.com/blog Nishant Totla

      Neither do I believe that IITs are great institutes “by default”, nor did I claim this. The sole point of this article was to clear up some misrepresentation of facts. I’ll take hard truths over stupid falsehoods any day. Students who join IITs have done well in a certain exam, have a certain kind of skill, which unfortunately may not make them any good with their engineering discipline. Like any other college, the demographic at an IIT is pretty diverse. In a population of thousands, you can’t expect everybody to have similar interests. It is time we stopped fooling ourselves into thinking that everyone joins IIT because of some romanticized “love for science and engineering”. Most people join IIT because that’s one of the safe things to do. So all this diatribe against IITs reeks of double standard, because not many people (at any college) really love what they do. We ought to move away from discussing people’s salaries and their justifications, it does no good.

      As for the reasons behind this, just think of the IITs as a train. There is a single train, and everyone wants to get on it. But the doors are narrow, so everyone rushes, and some get in. Now not all of those might really be fond of travelling on trains. Some might want to just get down upon every opportunity. But they got in because they were good at pushing and shoving, or they were forced to, or had wrong notions about train travel. And some others who are genuine train lovers didn’t, because they weren’t good at making their way in. That is the problem for you, in a nutshell. The basic cause – too many people, not enough bogies. What can you do? The people will just increase, but bogies can’t be, not at that rate. Widening the doors will only spoil the quality of travel for those inside. There of course is a better, and more equitable system of education, and I would be glad if India could embrace it. But I feel we’re going in the wrong direction with all this hate.

  • Kiran

    Our Mr. IIT has forgotten that his degree was subsidized by poor Indian tax payers.

    I totally agree with the title of this post “Let’s shut the IITs down”.
    How can a poor country like India develop if we spend thousands of crores on few thousand students in IITs, when we have millions of poor unskilled youth (who could not efford coaching classes in Kota)? Look at how China has become worlds second largest economy and lifted millions out of poverty in just a couple of decades by educating and training millions.
    India needs good schools and ITIs not IITs.

    Also the band IIT is over rated, their global ranking around 300+ and 40+ in Asia.
    Except few in California nobody outside India know about them. Even in American universities they play second fiddle to Koreans and Chinese.

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